Chels, Im glad about your chromosome testing- and Im sorry about the egg news- I think lots of people on here know a good bit about donor eggs- and Dr. Q can hopefully give you some more information :)
((((((Hug)))))))))
((((((Hug)))))))))
Crappy Eggs......
August 12, 2008
So I tlaked with the RE this past weekend and all my tests came out fine, including the chromosomal testing - YEAH! Right? Well, kinda. That is good but means nothing to “fix” to help get us preggo.
I asked him to talk to the embryologist to see what was up and if there was something wrong with the eggs b4 the fertilization or just after. Turns out that I have crappy eggs. He hated to say it since I am 33 and they don’t see that “too often” is what he said. We have gotten preggo on our own but lost it early and then lost another 2 (we think) thry IVF.
My questions are:
1. Can you do anything to help “fix” the crummy eggs? I already take a pre-natal vitamin, a Vit E pill, Omega 3 pill, calcium/magnesium/zinc vitamin.
2. Can this have messed up my eggs - I don’t eat very well now or ever, have been anorexic as well as bulimic.
3. Do you know what it costs to get some donor eggs? Do you buy them by the number and then freeze them if you don’t use them all?
Thx a bunch!
I asked him to talk to the embryologist to see what was up and if there was something wrong with the eggs b4 the fertilization or just after. Turns out that I have crappy eggs. He hated to say it since I am 33 and they don’t see that “too often” is what he said. We have gotten preggo on our own but lost it early and then lost another 2 (we think) thry IVF.
My questions are:
1. Can you do anything to help “fix” the crummy eggs? I already take a pre-natal vitamin, a Vit E pill, Omega 3 pill, calcium/magnesium/zinc vitamin.
2. Can this have messed up my eggs - I don’t eat very well now or ever, have been anorexic as well as bulimic.
3. Do you know what it costs to get some donor eggs? Do you buy them by the number and then freeze them if you don’t use them all?
Thx a bunch!
Comments page 12
I dont really think i have either of them licked to be honest. Never got to be 90 pounds so i wasnt ever treated for it and still to this day when i eat more than i think i should have i argue and fight with myself not to throw up.
Thx for the hug, its nice to know that there are others out there that know how horrible of a thing it is to go thru. :)
Thx for the hug, its nice to know that there are others out there that know how horrible of a thing it is to go thru. :)
yup 10 is the high mark....I have read something about this long time ago and just have to look at it again. I would like to know the thoughts of the dr's I wonder also does your IVF clinic specialise in this type of situation. You might have to move to another clinic that can help you out more than this one. I'm socked that they didn't tell you about this earlier. Let me look around for the inform I'm not really sure if there is any proof in the pudding in it....
chels I found the infor I still had it saved in my bookmark....I'm just going to copy and paste a small part of it so you can read it and hopefully Dr. Q will help guide you along what can if anything can be done about your situation....
If you think you may be struggling with fertility issues, it is important to get checked out by a health care professional. In particular, you should probably make sure that your eggs are healthy and of a good quality. Women who are struggling with infertility and are over the age of 37 are usually tested for this.
It is difficult to determine the quality of an egg simply by looking at it. Doctors usually have to implant the egg using in vitro fertilization to see whether it will grow or not. However, there is fertility testing to determine if you may be suffering from poor egg quality. Typical tests that evaluate your egg equality include:
Day 3 FSH Test: Measures your levels of FSH. Elevated levels may indicate poor egg quality.
Clomid Challenge Test (CCCT): The clomid challenge test is a blood test that also looks for FSH as Estradiol in your body. However, this test is more accurate and more in-depth.
Treatments for Poor Egg Quality
If you are suffering from poor egg quality there are a variety of fertility treatments that you can pursue to help you to conceive. Just because you have poor quality eggs does not mean that it is impossible for you to become pregnant.
Using fertility drugs is one way to possibly increase the quantity and quality of your eggs. Typical female infertility drugs include clomiphene and bromocriptine.
In vitro fertilization is another treatment option. However, if your eggs are of too poor quality, you may be encouraged to use an egg donor.
For the Future
Research into improving egg quality is ongoing. One treatment currently in the trial phase is cytoplasmic transfer. This form of treatment involves putting cytoplasm (the watery, outside layer of a cell) from a healthy donated egg into a poor quality egg in order to help it divide.
Nuclear transfer is another form of treatment currently under investigation. Nuclear transfer involves taking a healthy nucleus from a donated egg and transferring it into an egg with an unhealthy nucleus. This helps to improve the quality of the egg thereby increasing the chances of conception occurring.
Though neither of these procedures are currently available to the general public, there is hope that they may come to fertility clinics in the near future.
If you think you may be struggling with fertility issues, it is important to get checked out by a health care professional. In particular, you should probably make sure that your eggs are healthy and of a good quality. Women who are struggling with infertility and are over the age of 37 are usually tested for this.
It is difficult to determine the quality of an egg simply by looking at it. Doctors usually have to implant the egg using in vitro fertilization to see whether it will grow or not. However, there is fertility testing to determine if you may be suffering from poor egg quality. Typical tests that evaluate your egg equality include:
Day 3 FSH Test: Measures your levels of FSH. Elevated levels may indicate poor egg quality.
Clomid Challenge Test (CCCT): The clomid challenge test is a blood test that also looks for FSH as Estradiol in your body. However, this test is more accurate and more in-depth.
Treatments for Poor Egg Quality
If you are suffering from poor egg quality there are a variety of fertility treatments that you can pursue to help you to conceive. Just because you have poor quality eggs does not mean that it is impossible for you to become pregnant.
Using fertility drugs is one way to possibly increase the quantity and quality of your eggs. Typical female infertility drugs include clomiphene and bromocriptine.
In vitro fertilization is another treatment option. However, if your eggs are of too poor quality, you may be encouraged to use an egg donor.
For the Future
Research into improving egg quality is ongoing. One treatment currently in the trial phase is cytoplasmic transfer. This form of treatment involves putting cytoplasm (the watery, outside layer of a cell) from a healthy donated egg into a poor quality egg in order to help it divide.
Nuclear transfer is another form of treatment currently under investigation. Nuclear transfer involves taking a healthy nucleus from a donated egg and transferring it into an egg with an unhealthy nucleus. This helps to improve the quality of the egg thereby increasing the chances of conception occurring.
Though neither of these procedures are currently available to the general public, there is hope that they may come to fertility clinics in the near future.
Nothing can really "fix" eggs, nor is it nothing you've done in the past...taking these supplements you mentioned, considering acupuncture may help a little, but not the silver bullet..
Regardless, you should consider that you do get pregnant and this is a good start...trying again wouldn't be necessarily futile and hope you do have success (We've all seen this that some people with "poor" eggs can still get pregnant)
There are extra costs associated with Donor Eggs from a fertility center, let alone paying an agency about $8,000...
Regardless, you should consider that you do get pregnant and this is a good start...trying again wouldn't be necessarily futile and hope you do have success (We've all seen this that some people with "poor" eggs can still get pregnant)
There are extra costs associated with Donor Eggs from a fertility center, let alone paying an agency about $8,000...
Chels- I am sorry to hear of your eggies.. I want you to know I also stuggled with an eating disorder..anorexia at my worst I was 85 LBS. I am better now, but still hate by body and often think..: I should go back to that way of life" but I know in my heart its so unhealthy..but in my head I feel different. Being a figure skater and in the "spotlight" there is so much pressure on us to be thin.. and that usually means taking up vices.. basically I smoked to keep my metabolism up and only ate 3 things a day.. nutragrain bar for breakfast, a bouillon cube for lunch and 1/4 cup of pasta at night.. that was it.. water or diet soda.. I was very ill. And I want you to know I know how it is.. if you ever need to talk I am here to listen
great info angela!!
Thx doc. Im not all that in the dumps about it for some reason im ok about it all. I would obvioulsy like to hear better news but its not the worst news in the world.
Good to know that my issues didnt "cause this" problem. That sure is a huge burdon off my shoulders.
I would assume that i dont make ALL crappy eggs wendy so we are still ok as far as i am concerned. I am gonna take some clomid so maybe that could help :)
Thx doc. Im not all that in the dumps about it for some reason im ok about it all. I would obvioulsy like to hear better news but its not the worst news in the world.
Good to know that my issues didnt "cause this" problem. That sure is a huge burdon off my shoulders.
I would assume that i dont make ALL crappy eggs wendy so we are still ok as far as i am concerned. I am gonna take some clomid so maybe that could help :)
You're welcome Chels and so understand how you are feeling. Just look at the dh and I's journey we are just getting things sorted and his sperm is improving and got the testicle down. So if you can get a clinic that deals with this type of issue and will be honest with you and help you things are possible. It's not over just a new mountain for you and the dh to climb over together...one step at a time...together and stronger...just like Nike says...just do it!!!!
thx caryn, also good to know others struggle as well.
I cant imagine what you went thru with the skating..... i never wanted my daughter to go into gymnastics cuz i heard how hard they are on the girls and with my genes she is already partly screwed up! LOL!
I will keep you and crystal in mind when i am struggling with my head and my heart when eating and weight issues creap up on me.
I know its not a healthy way but its really all i know - but i struggle cuz it would just kill me to know that my daughter was doing what i did/do. Neither of my kids have ever heard me say i cant eat something cuz i dont want to gain weight cuz i coudlnt live w/myself knowing that i did that to them. Thank god my ex hubby was skinny as can be and ate anything he wanted. I always said that i hoped my kids would end up with my face and his metabolism - LOL! he wouldnt have been a pretty girl! LOL!
I cant imagine what you went thru with the skating..... i never wanted my daughter to go into gymnastics cuz i heard how hard they are on the girls and with my genes she is already partly screwed up! LOL!
I will keep you and crystal in mind when i am struggling with my head and my heart when eating and weight issues creap up on me.
I know its not a healthy way but its really all i know - but i struggle cuz it would just kill me to know that my daughter was doing what i did/do. Neither of my kids have ever heard me say i cant eat something cuz i dont want to gain weight cuz i coudlnt live w/myself knowing that i did that to them. Thank god my ex hubby was skinny as can be and ate anything he wanted. I always said that i hoped my kids would end up with my face and his metabolism - LOL! he wouldnt have been a pretty girl! LOL!
There is dissension among REs about whether or not egg quality can be improved or not. There is nothing proven to increase egg quality but some believe DHEA can improve it. What I've seen on various Poor Responder boards does not make me, personally, think it is worth pursuing, though there was a study picked up by the popular press that indicated growth hormones do help sometimes. It was pop science so not too reliable. (If I can't get my grubby hands on the actual published journal article in scientific matters, I'm dubious of what is left out when the media reports.)
Unfortunately, cytoplasmic transfer from a donor is illegal in the USA because uneducated people think it is cloning. (Cloning isn't even what they think it is. You don't get an exact copy of the "parent.") Some physicians / embryologists will do cytoplasmic transfer by selecting one or two eggs from what is retrieved and, if available, using the cytoplasm from the other eggs retrieved to inject what they perceive as the better eggs. Again, I haven't heard much about the successes surrounding this. (One other reason donor cytoplasmic transfer was stopped was that there are some mitochondrial issues that can occur. Again, I'm not familiar with what exactly would happen if you are making sure to match mitochondrial types.)
One small quibble, REs do not implant fertilized eggs. They transfer them in hopes of implantation. Implantation is one of those things that they are still working out in order to help more women get pregnant. There are things that they do that seem to help - like baby aspirin and corticosteroids at transfer. It is just a pet peeve of mine when I hear someone say their doctor "implanted" embryos.
A lot of women on the various poor responders boards have found their egg quality improved if they address any underlying health issues - hydrosalpinges, endometriosis, TSH levels (1 to 2 when trying to conceive - most general doc's don't realize those values have changed), etc.
Acupuncture and wheatgrass is also popular.
The other thing that seems to help some women has been a change in IVF protocol. There are several protocols available and if your doctor is unwilling to look at the possibility that your eggs may be being damaged in some way from that particular protocol, well, see someone else. Most good doctors will tailor treatment to your particular needs.
Never be afraid to travel for treatment if you find that you can't find someone near you that has experience working with your particular issues. Many REs can get women pregnant, but like any group of specialists, some tend to find patient populations they are particularly talented at helping. There are also REs out there who like that special challenge.
You have age on your side. You are less than 35 and age is a huge factor. It is, ultimately, up to you what type of treatment you want to pursue.
Sorry for the book...
Unfortunately, cytoplasmic transfer from a donor is illegal in the USA because uneducated people think it is cloning. (Cloning isn't even what they think it is. You don't get an exact copy of the "parent.") Some physicians / embryologists will do cytoplasmic transfer by selecting one or two eggs from what is retrieved and, if available, using the cytoplasm from the other eggs retrieved to inject what they perceive as the better eggs. Again, I haven't heard much about the successes surrounding this. (One other reason donor cytoplasmic transfer was stopped was that there are some mitochondrial issues that can occur. Again, I'm not familiar with what exactly would happen if you are making sure to match mitochondrial types.)
One small quibble, REs do not implant fertilized eggs. They transfer them in hopes of implantation. Implantation is one of those things that they are still working out in order to help more women get pregnant. There are things that they do that seem to help - like baby aspirin and corticosteroids at transfer. It is just a pet peeve of mine when I hear someone say their doctor "implanted" embryos.
A lot of women on the various poor responders boards have found their egg quality improved if they address any underlying health issues - hydrosalpinges, endometriosis, TSH levels (1 to 2 when trying to conceive - most general doc's don't realize those values have changed), etc.
Acupuncture and wheatgrass is also popular.
The other thing that seems to help some women has been a change in IVF protocol. There are several protocols available and if your doctor is unwilling to look at the possibility that your eggs may be being damaged in some way from that particular protocol, well, see someone else. Most good doctors will tailor treatment to your particular needs.
Never be afraid to travel for treatment if you find that you can't find someone near you that has experience working with your particular issues. Many REs can get women pregnant, but like any group of specialists, some tend to find patient populations they are particularly talented at helping. There are also REs out there who like that special challenge.
You have age on your side. You are less than 35 and age is a huge factor. It is, ultimately, up to you what type of treatment you want to pursue.
Sorry for the book...
Chels, I too am going through something similar, and I'm taking the exact supplements you are,so your post caught my eye. My history is 1 miscarriage, 1 ectopic, and 2 failed ivf's with poor fertilization and embryo quality. Today I'm going to do research on wheatgrass and flaxseed oil and fsh levels and I'll post whatever I find out. Also my fsh is 10 and my doctor did not seem fazed at all about that so that helped me stay calm, have you gotten estradiol checked? I don't think I did because my current doctor is an ob/gyn, I left my RE after 2 failed ivf's.
Sometimes I feel that we are our own best advocates, and I have faith in doctors, but only those that work with us and stay current, not those that just treat you like a number or go by the (outdated) book. Don't lose hope, because if all else fails, we always have the donor egg option, and you can afford to wait for that since your own age will not matter if you go that route.
I know about two cases, one 25 year old with severe endo who got preg after a d&c, and one 41 year old with endo who got preg for the first time after taking wheatgrass, and I didn't with ivf, so I'm looking into alternatives that might work for me.
Oh and guess what, 2 doctors had told me that my tubes were all messed up due to pelvic adhesions from endometriosis, and yesterday I got an hsg and the tech said they were gorgeous! No problems at all! Yay!
Sometimes I feel that we are our own best advocates, and I have faith in doctors, but only those that work with us and stay current, not those that just treat you like a number or go by the (outdated) book. Don't lose hope, because if all else fails, we always have the donor egg option, and you can afford to wait for that since your own age will not matter if you go that route.
I know about two cases, one 25 year old with severe endo who got preg after a d&c, and one 41 year old with endo who got preg for the first time after taking wheatgrass, and I didn't with ivf, so I'm looking into alternatives that might work for me.
Oh and guess what, 2 doctors had told me that my tubes were all messed up due to pelvic adhesions from endometriosis, and yesterday I got an hsg and the tech said they were gorgeous! No problems at all! Yay!
chels iv read ur story,iv gone thru ivf and frozen transfer n hav read a lot.i think u shud switch clinics,esp if ur clinic is new and not listed on SAART.also fsh of 8 is perfectly fine.did ur doc give u a clomid challenge test?has ur dh gotten scsa test done?women with crappy eggs dont respond to meds much less get preggo like u did.giv it one more shot BUT with a different clinic,a sweet and nice doc doesnt neccessarily mean a competent doc.good luck!
In a very small percentage of women FSH is not an accurate indication of ovarian reserve - or those who will respond poorly. That's why a lot of clinics are moving towards Antral Follicle Count as a better predictor.
Also, you can get crappy eggs in any cycle. No two cycles are the same. Occasionally, a woman will get pregnant with "bad" eggs only to miscarry. The High FSH and Poor Responder boards are filled with such stories.
Having said that, find someone like Dr. Q who has experience working with poor responders. We are a little different than other patients and a lot of clinics are not able to step outside of their normal patient box and work properly with us. Do a search on the phrase "high fsh friendly REs" and you will be able to see who has been successful treating women with supposedly "crappy" eggs. (Somtimes REs will blame "crappy" eggs when there are other issues.)
Again, when you run into being a poor responder / accused of having crappy eggs/embryos, often, it is best to travel to an RE who is known to be able to help poor responders. BTW: Always get a copy of your medical records so you can quickly review REs. Most women who run into your issues will "interview" several of the REs who do work with poor responders / those with crappy eggs and go with the one they "click" with. (Not every doctor is right for every patient. Many doctors could never put up with DH and I because, well, we look up EVERYTHING in Medline and other sources. I've been known to dig up someone's doctoral thesis. Yeah, I'm a PITA. At least I know enough to do a citation analysis before bringing something up.)
chels, where are you located?
Also, you can get crappy eggs in any cycle. No two cycles are the same. Occasionally, a woman will get pregnant with "bad" eggs only to miscarry. The High FSH and Poor Responder boards are filled with such stories.
Having said that, find someone like Dr. Q who has experience working with poor responders. We are a little different than other patients and a lot of clinics are not able to step outside of their normal patient box and work properly with us. Do a search on the phrase "high fsh friendly REs" and you will be able to see who has been successful treating women with supposedly "crappy" eggs. (Somtimes REs will blame "crappy" eggs when there are other issues.)
Again, when you run into being a poor responder / accused of having crappy eggs/embryos, often, it is best to travel to an RE who is known to be able to help poor responders. BTW: Always get a copy of your medical records so you can quickly review REs. Most women who run into your issues will "interview" several of the REs who do work with poor responders / those with crappy eggs and go with the one they "click" with. (Not every doctor is right for every patient. Many doctors could never put up with DH and I because, well, we look up EVERYTHING in Medline and other sources. I've been known to dig up someone's doctoral thesis. Yeah, I'm a PITA. At least I know enough to do a citation analysis before bringing something up.)
chels, where are you located?
im in wisconsin and i am gonna go to another clinic - as convenient as this one is and i truley do like the RE and everyone there but something just isnt right. I shouldnt be asking all these ?'s, they should be telling me this stuff.
Maele - im so sorry for your situation - its rough, really rough.
When i went to talk to my OB instead of RE he wasnt comfy with Femera and wanted me to try the Clomid, if it didnt work in 3 times he would consider femera.
How old are you maele? Im 33 and will be 34 in september, time is a ticken!!! LOL!
Tonya - i think i read that you are now in the 1st trimester, congrats!
What is a "clomid challenge"? I ovulate on my own each month and he just gave me 50mg to take from days 3-7 and then call the next month if not preggo.
My DH is going to a urologist on the 18th (took a month to get in) and my RE never even said for him to go, i found the doc myself and made the appt. His morph was at 1% with his SA and he was like - "well, with IUI and IVF it isnt a problem".
Thanks for the great info MLO - i love the thing you said about diggin up the docs thesis! How awesome are you?!?!?! LOL, good stuff. Whats a PITA?
Maele - im so sorry for your situation - its rough, really rough.
When i went to talk to my OB instead of RE he wasnt comfy with Femera and wanted me to try the Clomid, if it didnt work in 3 times he would consider femera.
How old are you maele? Im 33 and will be 34 in september, time is a ticken!!! LOL!
Tonya - i think i read that you are now in the 1st trimester, congrats!
What is a "clomid challenge"? I ovulate on my own each month and he just gave me 50mg to take from days 3-7 and then call the next month if not preggo.
My DH is going to a urologist on the 18th (took a month to get in) and my RE never even said for him to go, i found the doc myself and made the appt. His morph was at 1% with his SA and he was like - "well, with IUI and IVF it isnt a problem".
Thanks for the great info MLO - i love the thing you said about diggin up the docs thesis! How awesome are you?!?!?! LOL, good stuff. Whats a PITA?
Hi Chels- Thats why I switched RE's.. I was like, "You have the Med degree, why am I asking all the Q's and telling you what to do!" This RE (my new one) I feel good about.. even though my lining was thin last month.. I still felt good, she realyl makes you feel like your the only patient and calls you, not just the nurses...
I do not think you need the :Clomid challenge" since you O on your own...
Good Luck with DH on the Urologist.. my DH see's one..
Have you ever trid ICSI ??
I do not think you need the :Clomid challenge" since you O on your own...
Good Luck with DH on the Urologist.. my DH see's one..
Have you ever trid ICSI ??
clomid challenge test is not to find out ur ovulating or not.its a little more specific than day 3 fsh.they give u clomid for the usual days then measure ur fsh on day 10.many times with day 3 fsh women will hav normal value ,but day 10 fsh after clomid challenge test is more accurate coz it picks out those women who apparently hav a normal day 3 fsh.this will just help you chelsea in knowing if u REALLY do hav egg issues or not.also chels what was your antral follicle count on day 3 ultrasound,i wud definately ask ur doc about that .yes chels my frozen was succsessful so thanks.
Comments page 12
August 12, 2008